There has been a debate in the philately section of both the American and the British forums about the terminology appropriate to bogus or forged items, reprints, etc etc. There are lots of terms available.
I have suggested that this should be widened to include a uniform approach for coins and banknotes. The following is a slightly adapted quotation:
” I prefer the word FANTASY to bogus because it is not harsh (after all, the seller is trying to sell it), and because (as some may not appreciate) FANTASY is familiar in French and other languages, whereas Bogus is not (unless it is well known to French stamp collectors, like tete-beche in England) . Similarly, REPRODUCTION is kinder than forgery, familiar in other languages, and covers what stamp-collectors admit exist: merely possible forgeries, and various categories of reprint. You cannot demand that a seller knows exactly what he has got, and in some cases it is debatable, even if the origin is known, for example Heligoland stamps (with Queen Victoria) produced by the original Berlin printers for sale to collectors, and most Maria Theresa Thalers (many produced in London, Rome, or quite recently in Vienna ).
There is nothing to stop any seller adding additional information to the basic word, which I think in many cases should be FANTASY (i.e. never genuine) or REPRODUCTION (of a genuine item).
It seems to me that what is being looked for here is a system which :
1) Will protect buyers
2) Can be understood by buyers (and sellers) who are not experts
3) Can be understood by buyers (and sellers) whose first language is not English (and not the language of the seller).
4) Preferably, a consistent system for stamps, coins, and banknotes (particularly because:
a) some sellers/buyers have at least two of these categories
b) the issuing country is often the same, e.g. Nagorno Karabakh, although the category appropriate to their stamps, coins and banknotes may well be different -- the stamps are apparently in local use at least, but probably not the coins and banknotes. )
5) A system which can reasonably be made international and compulsory would be desirable, and this needs to be simple.
FOR THE ABOVE REASONS I suggest that the words (in English or French) FANTASY and REPRODUCTION should be made compulsory in the naming of any item whatsoever to which they are appropriate. Certainly further descriptions in any language could be added.
But this is SIMPLE and easily learnt by everybody.
It must be accepted that LOCAL stamps and TOKENS/JETONS, also NOTGELD/billets & monnaies DE NECESSITÉ exist, and are not fantasies.
Sellers could apply to delcampe for any other exceptions they consider need to be specified. “
There has been a debate in the philately section of both the American and the British forums about the terminology appropriate to bogus or forged items, reprints, etc etc. There are lots of terms available.
I have suggested that this should be widened to include a uniform approach for coins and banknotes. The following is a slightly adapted quotation:
” I prefer the word FANTASY to bogus because it is not harsh (after all, the seller is trying to sell it), and because (as some may not appreciate) FANTASY is familiar in French and other languages, whereas Bogus is not (unless it is well known to French stamp collectors, like tete-beche in England) . Similarly, REPRODUCTION is kinder than forgery, familiar in other languages, and covers what stamp-collectors admit exist: merely possible forgeries, and various categories of reprint. You cannot demand that a seller knows exactly what he has got, and in some cases it is debatable, even if the origin is known, for example Heligoland stamps (with Queen Victoria) produced by the original Berlin printers for sale to collectors, and most Maria Theresa Thalers (many produced in London, Rome, or quite recently in Vienna ).
There is nothing to stop any seller adding additional information to the basic word, which I think in many cases should be FANTASY (i.e. never genuine) or REPRODUCTION (of a genuine item).
It seems to me that what is being looked for here is a system which :
1) Will protect buyers
2) Can be understood by buyers (and sellers) who are not experts
3) Can be understood by buyers (and sellers) whose first language is not English (and not the language of the seller).
4) Preferably, a consistent system for stamps, coins, and banknotes (particularly because:
a) some sellers/buyers have at least two of these categories
b) the issuing country is often the same, e.g. Nagorno Karabakh, although the category appropriate to their stamps, coins and banknotes may well be different -- the stamps are apparently in local use at least, but probably not the coins and banknotes. )
5) A system which can reasonably be made international and compulsory would be desirable, and this needs to be simple.
FOR THE ABOVE REASONS I suggest that the words (in English or French) FANTASY and REPRODUCTION should be made compulsory in the naming of any item whatsoever to which they are appropriate. Certainly further descriptions in any language could be added.
But this is SIMPLE and easily learnt by everybody.
It must be accepted that LOCAL stamps and TOKENS/JETONS, also NOTGELD/billets & monnaies DE NECESSITÉ exist, and are not fantasies.
Sellers could apply to delcampe for any other exceptions they consider need to be specified. “
Any comments from coin and banknote collectors ?
hi PN,
here, here, pip pip, and all that sort of rot. another great dissertation. morning professor. well, got 2 cups of mississippi mud in me and raring to go again before i sits my butt down to read the sunday funnies. but thought i would harass you a little first. after all, we americans have always been the thorn in the queen's crown or king's crown for a long time. i guess we could raise all kinds of mayhem on the weekends, pascal and them are off doing their own thing. wonder if anyone is minding the store, maybe 'hal' from the 2001 odysessy movie. probably rented him cheap as a server unit. or 'robbie the robot' from 'forbidden planet', and he can make all the liquor you want too, but can he make good coffee, cajun style? just love them ol' sci fi movies, but the original ones. can't replace those great actors, just like you can't replace a genuine stamp or coin with a fake. if you think about how a master die maker went through all the trouble of making his craft, then some bozo tries to copy it. why doesn't this bozo get a job in the mint too if he is that good. at least he would be honest then. go figure. the crook eventually gets caught and goes to prison for hard time, what a waste of talent. well, time for the sunday funnies. take care y'all.
later gators,
cajunsr.
hi PN,
here, here, pip pip, and all that sort of rot. another great dissertation. morning professor. well, got 2 cups of mississippi mud in me and raring to go again before i sits my butt down to read the sunday funnies. but thought i would harass you a little first. after all, we americans have always been the thorn in the queen's crown or king's crown for a long time. i guess we could raise all kinds of mayhem on the weekends, pascal and them are off doing their own thing. wonder if anyone is minding the store, maybe 'hal' from the 2001 odysessy movie. probably rented him cheap as a server unit. or 'robbie the robot' from 'forbidden planet', and he can make all the liquor you want too, but can he make good coffee, cajun style? just love them ol' sci fi movies, but the original ones. can't replace those great actors, just like you can't replace a genuine stamp or coin with a fake. if you think about how a master die maker went through all the trouble of making his craft, then some bozo tries to copy it. why doesn't this bozo get a job in the mint too if he is that good. at least he would be honest then. go figure. the crook eventually gets caught and goes to prison for hard time, what a waste of talent. well, time for the sunday funnies. take care y'all.
later gators,
cajunsr.
In fact, real coins get worn in use. The quality of a good reproduction is in fact much higher than the quality of the vast majority of genuine pieces available, and this is what usually first arouses suspicions. Very many collectors would rather have a reproduction than a gap, and why not ? An unnamed factory in Italy catered for this for decades by producing reproductions of just exactly the Italian coins which people could not afford, but not the cheaper coins. They are openly sold in popular outlets (mainly newsagents) labelled "Riconio" (in effect, reproduction). What's wrong with that ?
If a 1 lira coin costs $5, but a 2 lire coin of similar design costs $200, this is nothing to do with rewarding the skill of a master die maker. It is just scarcity and market value. If someone is skilled and enterprising enough to market a good reproduction of the 2 lire for $6, most collectors will really have little choice but to go for that or nothing. I believe they should have that choice, while knowing that they are buying a rerproduction.
In fact, real coins get worn in use. The quality of a good reproduction is in fact much higher than the quality of the vast majority of genuine pieces available, and this is what usually first arouses suspicions. Very many collectors would rather have a reproduction than a gap, and why not ? An unnamed factory in Italy catered for this for decades by producing reproductions of just exactly the Italian coins which people could not afford, but not the cheaper coins. They are openly sold in popular outlets (mainly newsagents) labelled "Riconio" (in effect, reproduction). What's wrong with that ?
If a 1 lira coin costs $5, but a 2 lire coin of similar design costs $200, this is nothing to do with rewarding the skill of a master die maker. It is just scarcity and market value. If someone is skilled and enterprising enough to market a good reproduction of the 2 lire for $6, most collectors will really have little choice but to go for that or nothing. I believe they should have that choice, while knowing that they are buying a rerproduction.
hi PN,
i was referring to a counterfeiter, not an honest engraver or die maker. a reproduction is not a counterfeit. a fake or forgery is. but if the guy has the talent to make a good counterfeit, then he could make an honest living working at a real job earning honest wages. as i eluded to in another forum letter, i saw out and out right fake trade dollars being sold on delcampe through a chinese dealer. it looked like a rough mold was cast from an original and then a coin produced from it. no telling what kind of pot metal they used to make the coin. but you can tell it is definitely a fake by the picture of a real one in the coin catalog i have. and the prices they are being sold for. again, i say to the buyer, caveat emptor or buyer beware. if it looks to good to be true, don't buy it. and personally, i hope delcampe throws this dealer off his site because he does not say his coins are fakes. this is what i have tried to tell him and pascal all along. not only do you have to worry about scam artists, but also sellers who do not comply with rules of good conduct and honesty. and i am talking about the goods being genuine. not just stamps or coins, but how about jewelry. is that ring really solid gold or that stone a real diamond or a synthetic stone? or that old comic a copy? the list goes on and on. we are just on the tip of an iceberg here, but i'm sure pascal is ready with his blowdryer. y'all take care.
later gators,
cajunsr.
hi PN,
i was referring to a counterfeiter, not an honest engraver or die maker. a reproduction is not a counterfeit. a fake or forgery is. but if the guy has the talent to make a good counterfeit, then he could make an honest living working at a real job earning honest wages. as i eluded to in another forum letter, i saw out and out right fake trade dollars being sold on delcampe through a chinese dealer. it looked like a rough mold was cast from an original and then a coin produced from it. no telling what kind of pot metal they used to make the coin. but you can tell it is definitely a fake by the picture of a real one in the coin catalog i have. and the prices they are being sold for. again, i say to the buyer, caveat emptor or buyer beware. if it looks to good to be true, don't buy it. and personally, i hope delcampe throws this dealer off his site because he does not say his coins are fakes. this is what i have tried to tell him and pascal all along. not only do you have to worry about scam artists, but also sellers who do not comply with rules of good conduct and honesty. and i am talking about the goods being genuine. not just stamps or coins, but how about jewelry. is that ring really solid gold or that stone a real diamond or a synthetic stone? or that old comic a copy? the list goes on and on. we are just on the tip of an iceberg here, but i'm sure pascal is ready with his blowdryer. y'all take care.
later gators,
cajunsr.
hi PN,
i did a search for them trade dollars and didn't find that dealer, maybe delcampe done put the kabosh on him. if so, good for him. it is dealers like him that would give this site a very bad image for all the other sellers. and we don't need that. right seb!
later gators,
cajunsr.
hi PN,
i was referring to a counterfeiter, not an honest engraver or die maker. a reproduction is not a counterfeit. a fake or forgery is. but if the guy has the talent to make a good counterfeit, then he could make an honest living working at a real job earning honest wages. as i eluded to in another forum letter, i saw out and out right fake trade dollars being sold on delcampe through a chinese dealer. it looked like a rough mold was cast from an original and then a coin produced from it. no telling what kind of pot metal they used to make the coin. but you can tell it is definitely a fake by the picture of a real one in the coin catalog i have. and the prices they are being sold for. again, i say to the buyer, caveat emptor or buyer beware. if it looks to good to be true, don't buy it. and personally, i hope delcampe throws this dealer off his site because he does not say his coins are fakes. this is what i have tried to tell him and pascal all along. not only do you have to worry about scam artists, but also sellers who do not comply with rules of good conduct and honesty. and i am talking about the goods being genuine. not just stamps or coins, but how about jewelry. is that ring really solid gold or that stone a real diamond or a synthetic stone? or that old comic a copy? the list goes on and on. we are just on the tip of an iceberg here, but i'm sure pascal is ready with his blowdryer. y'all take care.
later gators,
cajunsr.
You are deluding yourself. "Fake" is simply a perjorative word for a reproduction, a word which a seller would never use.
Fakes, counterfeits, forgeries, replicas, facsimiles, copies, restrikes, are all physically the same. All that differs is the original motive of the manufacturer, and the quality, but there are high quality counterfeits and low quality museum reproductions.
We cannot expect the seller to know the motive or morality of the manufacturer, though it is interesting if he tells us anything he knows. What matters to us, is that if the item is a REPRODUCTION and he knows that it is, then he should declare it to the potential buyer. The same with a FANTASY. Here there is no physical difference between bogus and retro-pattern .
On a rather philosophical level, if the seller does not know the coin is not genuine, and the buyer doesn't know, and no expert can tell the difference, then as long as there are not too many of them, the manufacturer has done such a good job that it probably does not matter very much. Everyone is happy. Like when you feed somebody horse and tell them it's cow, which happens in France quite a lot among friends.
Large silvery coins sold by Chinese sellers especially (but also in Spain as tourist souvenirs) should be examined carefully to see if you might "unwrap" them. By this I mean that they are often made like chocolate coins, and round one of the circular edges (or often both, in the case of coins) you can see where the silver paper joins. The common Italian reproductions are not like this, but the quality varies, especially of the more exotic ones. Most are excellent. I have no complaints about them at all.
You are deluding yourself. "Fake" is simply a perjorative word for a reproduction, a word which a seller would never use.
Fakes, counterfeits, forgeries, replicas, facsimiles, copies, restrikes, are all physically the same. All that differs is the original motive of the manufacturer, and the quality, but there are high quality counterfeits and low quality museum reproductions.
We cannot expect the seller to know the motive or morality of the manufacturer, though it is interesting if he tells us anything he knows. What matters to us, is that if the item is a REPRODUCTION and he knows that it is, then he should declare it to the potential buyer. The same with a FANTASY. Here there is no physical difference between bogus and retro-pattern .
On a rather philosophical level, if the seller does not know the coin is not genuine, and the buyer doesn't know, and no expert can tell the difference, then as long as there are not too many of them, the manufacturer has done such a good job that it probably does not matter very much. Everyone is happy. Like when you feed somebody horse and tell them it's cow, which happens in France quite a lot among friends.
Large silvery coins sold by Chinese sellers especially (but also in Spain as tourist souvenirs) should be examined carefully to see if you might "unwrap" them. By this I mean that they are often made like chocolate coins, and round one of the circular edges (or often both, in the case of coins) you can see where the silver paper joins. The common Italian reproductions are not like this, but the quality varies, especially of the more exotic ones. Most are excellent. I have no complaints about them at all.
hi PN,
well, ol' p.t. barnum was right, 'there's one (a sucker) born every minute.' and if you want to be one, knock yourself out. but i do disagree and agree with you at the same time on your analysis. yes, all reproductions are fakes, counterfeits, whatever you may call them. and it is up to the seller to be honest enough to tell his customers if the item is genuine or not, if it is in doubt. but if it is offered a fake, and was this not the original question, how would it be actually described. i think we are coming full circle to the main argument again. is it a reprint, a cinderella, a bogus issue, etc.; there are many philatelic terms that can be used to decribe an item of similar attributes but still have some differing details about them. and i think we have beat this dead horse enough. let's go get a mule and whack it a while.
later gator,
cajunsr.
hi PN,
well, ol' p.t. barnum was right, 'there's one (a sucker) born every minute.' and if you want to be one, knock yourself out. but i do disagree and agree with you at the same time on your analysis. yes, all reproductions are fakes, counterfeits, whatever you may call them. and it is up to the seller to be honest enough to tell his customers if the item is genuine or not, if it is in doubt. but if it is offered a fake, and was this not the original question, how would it be actually described. i think we are coming full circle to the main argument again. is it a reprint, a cinderella, a bogus issue, etc.; there are many philatelic terms that can be used to decribe an item of similar attributes but still have some differing details about them. and i think we have beat this dead horse enough. let's go get a mule and whack it a while.
later gator,
cajunsr.
I'm sorry, but some of this is rubbish. You called the stamps of Lundy Cinderella issues, but they are not fakes or bogus or counterfeit. They are legitimate local stamps, in regular local postal use. Your "Cinderella" is much too vague a term to be any use at all. Bogus issues (in the usual sense of fantasies) are not counterfeits either, because there is nothing to counterfeit. "Whatever you may call them" is not good enough. We need to be clear and specific.
One has got to distinguish REPRODUCTIONS from FANTASIES in the first instance, and establish a uniform terminology for declaring them internationallly on delcampe --- there it is. You just seem to be saying "It's virtually impossible, and they are all Cinderellas and fakes". That is not a helpul approach and it gets us nowhere at all.
I'm sorry, but some of this is rubbish. You called the stamps of Lundy Cinderella issues, but they are not fakes or bogus or counterfeit. They are legitimate local stamps, in regular local postal use. Your "Cinderella" is much too vague a term to be any use at all. Bogus issues (in the usual sense of fantasies) are not counterfeits either, because there is nothing to counterfeit. "Whatever you may call them" is not good enough. We need to be clear and specific.
One has got to distinguish REPRODUCTIONS from FANTASIES in the first instance, and establish a uniform terminology for declaring them internationallly on delcampe --- there it is. You just seem to be saying "It's virtually impossible, and they are all Cinderellas and fakes". That is not a helpul approach and it gets us nowhere at all.
hi PN,
well, i'll hand it to you PN, your like a dog with a flea on it. once he starts biting and scratching, he just keeps on biting and scratching till he gets rid of it or the flea gets rid of him, drop by drop. i mean when we give you a boulder, you turn it into a pile of gravel. you are amazing when it comes to the final analysis. you sure you ain't related to howard cosell? you sure startin' to sound like him. i'm sure my brother can get you a job over here as sports announcer. he is an international lawyer you know. but didn't you just tell me that fakes, fantasies, and all that was the same? are we talking the same fleas here? are a different dog?
later gator,
cajunsr.
hi PN,
well, i'll hand it to you PN, your like a dog with a flea on it. once he starts biting and scratching, he just keeps on biting and scratching till he gets rid of it or the flea gets rid of him, drop by drop. i mean when we give you a boulder, you turn it into a pile of gravel. you are amazing when it comes to the final analysis. you sure you ain't related to howard cosell? you sure startin' to sound like him. i'm sure my brother can get you a job over here as sports announcer. he is an international lawyer you know. but didn't you just tell me that fakes, fantasies, and all that was the same? are we talking the same fleas here? are a different dog?
later gator,
cajunsr.
" But didn't you just tell me that fakes, fantasies, and all that was the same? "
NO, I never did. This is far from being the first time you have misrepresetned me.
"Fake" is a pejorative word for a REPRODUCTION.
A FANTASY is different. It is original. It is not official or useful, but it is NOT a reproducion of something official or useful. It is an imaginative artifact in its own right.
I have always maintained that it is important to make it clear that a seller is offering either a REPRODUCTION or a FANTASY. Unlike your "Cinderella", these are two distinct and well-defined categories.
I think you are demonstrating that to get all the sellers in the world to operate a more complicated system of terminology usefully and accurately would be completely impossible.
" But didn't you just tell me that fakes, fantasies, and all that was the same? "
NO, I never did. This is far from being the first time you have misrepresetned me.
"Fake" is a pejorative word for a REPRODUCTION.
A FANTASY is different. It is original. It is not official or useful, but it is NOT a reproducion of something official or useful. It is an imaginative artifact in its own right.
I have always maintained that it is important to make it clear that a seller is offering either a REPRODUCTION or a FANTASY. Unlike your "Cinderella", these are two distinct and well-defined categories.
I think you are demonstrating that to get all the sellers in the world to operate a more complicated system of terminology usefully and accurately would be completely impossible.
hi PN,
am i driving you crazy yet? in american philately, a cinderella or fantasy issue is the same. this is why i gave the links i did on the other forum.
hi y'all,
hold your horses, quikstraw! not so fast.
this is a better list:
1. FAKE, BOGUS, OR FORGERY eg. fournier, etc.
2. CINDERELLA OR FANTASY
3. OFFICIAL REPRINT OR REISSUE
4. COUNTERFEIT (AS DONE TO DECEIVE A GOV'T.)
5. OFFICIAL REPRODUCTION
6. FACSIMILE
as for help in understanding the meaning of these terms, here are some links that will help:
i reiterate, in american philately, a cinderella and fantasy issue is considered the same. my list was not complete by any means. and was meant for philately only. and the links for more information for the other philatelists who visit the forum, not just for you. after all, this is what this forum is for, for all of us to participate, not just for two old farts who got nothin' better to do than argue over the fence or across the swamp in this case. but then who else is out there? where are the youngins? must be playing computer games or out drinkin'. guess this is an old man's hobby anymore. what a shame. no wonder the world is in such a mess. take care PN. guess we are the only ones who really give a damn.
later gators,
cajunsr.
hi PN,
am i driving you crazy yet? in american philately, a cinderella or fantasy issue is the same. this is why i gave the links i did on the other forum.
hi y'all,
hold your horses, quikstraw! not so fast.
this is a better list:
1. FAKE, BOGUS, OR FORGERY eg. fournier, etc.
2. CINDERELLA OR FANTASY
3. OFFICIAL REPRINT OR REISSUE
4. COUNTERFEIT (AS DONE TO DECEIVE A GOV'T.)
5. OFFICIAL REPRODUCTION
6. FACSIMILE
as for help in understanding the meaning of these terms, here are some links that will help:
i reiterate, in american philately, a cinderella and fantasy issue is considered the same. my list was not complete by any means. and was meant for philately only. and the links for more information for the other philatelists who visit the forum, not just for you. after all, this is what this forum is for, for all of us to participate, not just for two old farts who got nothin' better to do than argue over the fence or across the swamp in this case. but then who else is out there? where are the youngins? must be playing computer games or out drinkin'. guess this is an old man's hobby anymore. what a shame. no wonder the world is in such a mess. take care PN. guess we are the only ones who really give a damn.
later gators,
cajunsr.
As allready stated on the Dutch forum:
In a 'simplified' opinion one could say:
Fakes are 'copies' of items that have 'originals'.
Fantasies are 'originals' in their kind.
That would solve about 95% of the cases, which is adequately enough. Trying to solve the other 5% is too time-consuming and offers little added value.
Fakes are 'copies' of items that have 'originals'.
Fantasies are 'originals' in their kind.
That would solve about 95% of the cases, which is adequately enough. Trying to solve the other 5% is too time-consuming and offers little added value.
hi moondude,
glad to see someone else is around tonight. kinda lonely here with momma off in colorado with the new grandkid. i'll agree with ya on the terms you use, but other people may come across the others i mentioned and more, so you really need to list them, and give a definition. that is why i gave the links, so they could do just that. we have to remember when this forum started with pascal's question, it was with the novice collector in mind, not us old timer philatelist. and it was for their protection that he was trying to create the termanology for. i think everyone keeps missing that boat here. and if y'all gonna go fishing as much as a cajun does, y'all gotta learn how to paddle your bateaux down the river. ya know, my ol' man was a pharmacist in the air force, and i wonder sometimes if he gave me and my brother some smart pills, or if i got a placebo. my brother is a lawyer and i was just an ol' medic in the army. but i'm still learning, and that's ok with me. y'all take care, time for bed.
later gators,
cajunsr.
hi moondude,
glad to see someone else is around tonight. kinda lonely here with momma off in colorado with the new grandkid. i'll agree with ya on the terms you use, but other people may come across the others i mentioned and more, so you really need to list them, and give a definition. that is why i gave the links, so they could do just that. we have to remember when this forum started with pascal's question, it was with the novice collector in mind, not us old timer philatelist. and it was for their protection that he was trying to create the termanology for. i think everyone keeps missing that boat here. and if y'all gonna go fishing as much as a cajun does, y'all gotta learn how to paddle your bateaux down the river. ya know, my ol' man was a pharmacist in the air force, and i wonder sometimes if he gave me and my brother some smart pills, or if i got a placebo. my brother is a lawyer and i was just an ol' medic in the army. but i'm still learning, and that's ok with me. y'all take care, time for bed.
later gators,
cajunsr.
I agree with Moondude, except that nobody would sell under the name "fake", which is often inappropriate anyway because it implies a tendency to deceive. "REPRODUCTION" is much better, and is more internationally recognisable a word.
But Cajun, lacking smart pills,shoots himself in the foot with his reiterated "In American philately". Apart from the desirability of delcampe using similar terminology for all commonly collected items, we are not all Americans, nor even all English-speaking. Not even British philatelists use this term "Cinderella", which is however mentioned by Stanley Gibbons as being too vague to be useful, because it tends to include everything not in the catalogue. Thus neither Cajun nor Moondude discriminate between genuine LOCAL stamps such as Lundy and Herm, and FANTASIES such as many of those from Scottish islands.
And the same with the various offerings of various NEW countries that pop up in the Caucasus and elsewhere. The terminology needs to be simple, well-defined and universal.
I agree with Moondude, except that nobody would sell under the name "fake", which is often inappropriate anyway because it implies a tendency to deceive. "REPRODUCTION" is much better, and is more internationally recognisable a word.
But Cajun, lacking smart pills,shoots himself in the foot with his reiterated "In American philately". Apart from the desirability of delcampe using similar terminology for all commonly collected items, we are not all Americans, nor even all English-speaking. Not even British philatelists use this term "Cinderella", which is however mentioned by Stanley Gibbons as being too vague to be useful, because it tends to include everything not in the catalogue. Thus neither Cajun nor Moondude discriminate between genuine LOCAL stamps such as Lundy and Herm, and FANTASIES such as many of those from Scottish islands.
And the same with the various offerings of various NEW countries that pop up in the Caucasus and elsewhere. The terminology needs to be simple, well-defined and universal.
hi PN and y'all,
well, maybe i do shoot myself in the foot now an' then, but we cajuns sure put some buckshot in them british asses in the war of 1812. the termanology used has to be universal, not just for one side of the ocean PN. you seem to think delcampe is just for europeans, not anymore brother and hasn't been. there is another side to the world or ain't you been here yet? and i'm sure all these suggestions we are making will be considered by seb and pascal if we haven't ticked them off already (was goin' use another 'p' word, but i'm being nice today pascal. and i ain't had but one cup of coffee while writing this.) it is another manic monday for them, so let them get their act together, and w'ell see what happens on this subject. take care y'all.
a bientot,
cajunsr.
hi PN and y'all,
well, maybe i do shoot myself in the foot now an' then, but we cajuns sure put some buckshot in them british asses in the war of 1812. the termanology used has to be universal, not just for one side of the ocean PN. you seem to think delcampe is just for europeans, not anymore brother and hasn't been. there is another side to the world or ain't you been here yet? and i'm sure all these suggestions we are making will be considered by seb and pascal if we haven't ticked them off already (was goin' use another 'p' word, but i'm being nice today pascal. and i ain't had but one cup of coffee while writing this.) it is another manic monday for them, so let them get their act together, and w'ell see what happens on this subject. take care y'all.
a bientot,
cajunsr.
You write:
"The termanology used has to be universal, not just for one side of the ocean. "
EXACTLY.
This is why it is no good using terms which may be popular with American philatelists, but not with anyone else.
You might even have realised that there is more than one Ocean to be considered. Which side of the Ocean is India ?
The Americans are so obsessed with the idea of freeing themselves from "King George" (the third of six), giving people universal freedom from oppression, and liberty, and US-style democaracy, abolishing colonialism and imperialism, they seem impervious to the fact that a large part of the world now sees America as the colonialists and the imperialists, taking away their individual freedoms, and imposing régimes and systems they do not really want.
Delcampe is based in Europe just as eBAy is based in America. You can join in, but I'm damned if I see why you should take over.
The French are worse than you anyway. I have been told (by a Belgian on the French-speaking website) that they do not want any terminology, they want to settle everything by "dialogue" (presumably in colloquial French after the sale).
You coud say pissed off, it's a French word, but I'm not sure they would understand it in this context. For us, "ticked off" is what you call "checked" (as when you check a box on eBay or Windows -- terminology you have brutally imposed on us). And what you call checks we call bills or cheques, and what you call bills we call notes, and what the French call notes is what we call bills and you call checks. How did this happen, I wonder ? It's like wearing the slip again .....
The terminology used should be universal.
Let's try to avoid the huge possibility of misunderstandings.
You write:
"The termanology used has to be universal, not just for one side of the ocean. "
EXACTLY.
This is why it is no good using terms which may be popular with American philatelists, but not with anyone else.
You might even have realised that there is more than one Ocean to be considered. Which side of the Ocean is India ?
The Americans are so obsessed with the idea of freeing themselves from "King George" (the third of six), giving people universal freedom from oppression, and liberty, and US-style democaracy, abolishing colonialism and imperialism, they seem impervious to the fact that a large part of the world now sees America as the colonialists and the imperialists, taking away their individual freedoms, and imposing régimes and systems they do not really want.
Delcampe is based in Europe just as eBAy is based in America. You can join in, but I'm damned if I see why you should take over.
The French are worse than you anyway. I have been told (by a Belgian on the French-speaking website) that they do not want any terminology, they want to settle everything by "dialogue" (presumably in colloquial French after the sale).
You coud say pissed off, it's a French word, but I'm not sure they would understand it in this context. For us, "ticked off" is what you call "checked" (as when you check a box on eBay or Windows -- terminology you have brutally imposed on us). And what you call checks we call bills or cheques, and what you call bills we call notes, and what the French call notes is what we call bills and you call checks. How did this happen, I wonder ? It's like wearing the slip again .....
The terminology used should be universal.
Let's try to avoid the huge possibility of misunderstandings.
hi PN,
excuse me, but whose in iraq with the u.s. troops right now, got a bullet for your foot? and who had the biggest bunch of colonies in the world and boasted about it? don't get me wrong, america should have kept it's nose, pardon me, g.w. bush and tony blair should have kept their noses out of iraq. but they didn't and now there is hell to pay. but getting back to the subject at hand, i totally agree the univeral terms should be used, but don't be prejudicial to the american ones. after all we immigrated from many european countries too, including england. we are just a marriage of all languages, and i think that is so cool. and personally, i hated high school english class. most boring crap i ever took. but i'm writing more in these forums than i ever wrote in an essay in school or college. but then i was a science major and a medic. i did more note taking for medical charts than dissertations. and i did take typing, the only good thing i ever did. it helps me to do these long letters on the forum quickly with my keyboard. well, we gonna beat this dead horse some more or find a live mule and get the crap kicked out of us. y'all take care.
later gator,
cajunsr.
hi PN,
excuse me, but whose in iraq with the u.s. troops right now, got a bullet for your foot? and who had the biggest bunch of colonies in the world and boasted about it? don't get me wrong, america should have kept it's nose, pardon me, g.w. bush and tony blair should have kept their noses out of iraq. but they didn't and now there is hell to pay. but getting back to the subject at hand, i totally agree the univeral terms should be used, but don't be prejudicial to the american ones. after all we immigrated from many european countries too, including england. we are just a marriage of all languages, and i think that is so cool. and personally, i hated high school english class. most boring crap i ever took. but i'm writing more in these forums than i ever wrote in an essay in school or college. but then i was a science major and a medic. i did more note taking for medical charts than dissertations. and i did take typing, the only good thing i ever did. it helps me to do these long letters on the forum quickly with my keyboard. well, we gonna beat this dead horse some more or find a live mule and get the crap kicked out of us. y'all take care.
later gator,
cajunsr.
My degree is in Science too, so what ?
We had the biggest empire in the world at one time, yes, but that was some time ago. Now the USA is the big imperial power, being careful not to use the word colony, at least not itself . For example, the British Indian Ocean Territory was handed over to the USA as a base, and they insisted on the ENTIRE native poplulation being expelled, but on paper it is still a British colony. Then take Samoa --- at one time, the bit which was in theory a British colony was in pracitise entirely self-governing, and later independent, whereas the bit being protected by the Americans was dictated to by a naval officer. Then there's Puerto Rico -- is it independent like Jamaica, a self-governing colony like Montserrat, an American state, or what? All the remaining British colonies are extremely small, and don't want to be indpendent (mostly because they are susidised), but internally they look after their own affairs without interference.
You are living in the past, with your war of 1812. There is no need for America to fight to free itself from European influence. On the contrary, thinking people in Europe, especially in France, distrust American influence, and you are taking over the world in all kinds of ways.
I dread to think what the ill-prepared clumsy Americans would have done in Iraq without a little European presence to guide them and keep an eye on them. It's bad enough as it is.
But what are you saying? This was not supposed to be in any way an imperialst or economic venture, was it ?
Actually, there are many instances where the English version of a word resembles the European version of the word much more than the American version does, e.g.
cheque (as in French, US check)
banknote (exactly as in Italian, US bill)
plough (like German Pflug & other languages, US plow)
film (as in French, US movie)
to telephone (like French téléphoner, US to call)
fridge (like French frigo, US icebox)
and many others.
Any term, from the USA, UK, or anywhere else, is no use if it is vague or not widely understood. It is not a question of having a quota of purely American terms to be fair to America.
We had the biggest empire in the world at one time, yes, but that was some time ago. Now the USA is the big imperial power, being careful not to use the word colony, at least not itself . For example, the British Indian Ocean Territory was handed over to the USA as a base, and they insisted on the ENTIRE native poplulation being expelled, but on paper it is still a British colony. Then take Samoa --- at one time, the bit which was in theory a British colony was in pracitise entirely self-governing, and later independent, whereas the bit being protected by the Americans was dictated to by a naval officer. Then there's Puerto Rico -- is it independent like Jamaica, a self-governing colony like Montserrat, an American state, or what? All the remaining British colonies are extremely small, and don't want to be indpendent (mostly because they are susidised), but internally they look after their own affairs without interference.
You are living in the past, with your war of 1812. There is no need for America to fight to free itself from European influence. On the contrary, thinking people in Europe, especially in France, distrust American influence, and you are taking over the world in all kinds of ways.
I dread to think what the ill-prepared clumsy Americans would have done in Iraq without a little European presence to guide them and keep an eye on them. It's bad enough as it is.
But what are you saying? This was not supposed to be in any way an imperialst or economic venture, was it ?
Actually, there are many instances where the English version of a word resembles the European version of the word much more than the American version does, e.g.
cheque (as in French, US check)
banknote (exactly as in Italian, US bill)
plough (like German Pflug & other languages, US plow)
film (as in French, US movie)
to telephone (like French téléphoner, US to call)
fridge (like French frigo, US icebox)
and many others.
Any term, from the USA, UK, or anywhere else, is no use if it is vague or not widely understood. It is not a question of having a quota of purely American terms to be fair to America.
hi PN,
forget the war of 1812, i just bring that up to antagonize you. the only reason that europe doesn't like american 'policy' is g.w. bush, period. his administration has screwed up from the get go around the world. clinton had a very good rapport with the world leaders and bush just totally reversed that. then screwed all americans and their bank accounts. you can bet this iraq venture was nothing but cheney's idea to give haliburton new oil wells to make them both rich. but it has backfired big time on them. and the ones to suffer are the american and british soldiers dying for the high price of oil. along with the iraq people. i don't believe the french hate americans, just the present administration we have. i find many of my french cousins and i get along just fine as we share the same attitude towards bush, we don't like him. but this is getting into politics and away from the subject at hand again. my apologies seb and pascal. you certainly know my passion for politics and my fierce loyalties as a democrat. and having bush sending my only son into that war, that broke the camel's back with me. i am no coward either, i have been to war, bush hasn't and neither has cheney. that really p*sses me off. so i really don't want to go further with this, my PTSD is really kickin' up right now. i need to calm down. talk at y'all later. peace.
later gators,
cajunsr.
hi PN,
forget the war of 1812, i just bring that up to antagonize you. the only reason that europe doesn't like american 'policy' is g.w. bush, period. his administration has screwed up from the get go around the world. clinton had a very good rapport with the world leaders and bush just totally reversed that. then screwed all americans and their bank accounts. you can bet this iraq venture was nothing but cheney's idea to give haliburton new oil wells to make them both rich. but it has backfired big time on them. and the ones to suffer are the american and british soldiers dying for the high price of oil. along with the iraq people. i don't believe the french hate americans, just the present administration we have. i find many of my french cousins and i get along just fine as we share the same attitude towards bush, we don't like him. but this is getting into politics and away from the subject at hand again. my apologies seb and pascal. you certainly know my passion for politics and my fierce loyalties as a democrat. and having bush sending my only son into that war, that broke the camel's back with me. i am no coward either, i have been to war, bush hasn't and neither has cheney. that really p*sses me off. so i really don't want to go further with this, my PTSD is really kickin' up right now. i need to calm down. talk at y'all later. peace.
later gators,
cajunsr.
It's strange how the Americans have to be democrats OR republicans, most Europeans have to be both !
I say "most". Actually, if you count them, there are a lot of constitutional monarchies getting along very nicely.
Has Canada done so much worse than the USA ?
I seem to remember America being pretty unpopular at other times too. Weren't there a lot of demonstrations about Viet Nam, for example ? I bet more people were killed in Viet Nam than in those twin towers we hear so much about. Poor old America. Outraged when anyone attacks them !
It's strange how the Americans have to be democrats OR republicans, most Europeans have to be both !
I say "most". Actually, if you count them, there are a lot of constitutional monarchies getting along very nicely.
Has Canada done so much worse than the USA ?
I seem to remember America being pretty unpopular at other times too. Weren't there a lot of demonstrations about Viet Nam, for example ? I bet more people were killed in Viet Nam than in those twin towers we hear so much about. Poor old America. Outraged when anyone attacks them !
and england wasn't when the al quaida subway attacks happened? or hitler attacked during ww2? or spain at their al quaida train attack? get real PN. this ain't the first time america has been attacked, pearl harbor, the maine, war of 1812, a few others. g.w. bush just used that as an excuse to go into iraq. much like eisenhower did for vietnam. it would seem the americans want to wage war, but i don't really believe that. i think it has always been the last resort, but not in bush's case. as for the 2 party system, we have others, these are just the dominant ones. and so does canada and other countries. that is what democracy is about. and most monarchys have a parlimentary government. the only archaic government around is the communist and they certainly are going more capitalistic as time goes by. well, i took some of my aggression on the dirty dishes my two grown kids didn't want to do, so i did. and boy, my bad back is telling me, 'you dumbass, why did you do that?' think i'm gonna lay down and rest a while now. y'all can hash this out with someone else.
later gators,
cajunsr.
and england wasn't when the al quaida subway attacks happened? or hitler attacked during ww2? or spain at their al quaida train attack? get real PN. this ain't the first time america has been attacked, pearl harbor, the maine, war of 1812, a few others. g.w. bush just used that as an excuse to go into iraq. much like eisenhower did for vietnam. it would seem the americans want to wage war, but i don't really believe that. i think it has always been the last resort, but not in bush's case. as for the 2 party system, we have others, these are just the dominant ones. and so does canada and other countries. that is what democracy is about. and most monarchys have a parlimentary government. the only archaic government around is the communist and they certainly are going more capitalistic as time goes by. well, i took some of my aggression on the dirty dishes my two grown kids didn't want to do, so i did. and boy, my bad back is telling me, 'you dumbass, why did you do that?' think i'm gonna lay down and rest a while now. y'all can hash this out with someone else.
later gators,
cajunsr.
England was attacked from the air in the First World War, it was expecting to be attacked from the air in the 1930s long before it actually happened, and most countries in the world were attacked from the air in the 20th century, many of them by the USA (who managed to do quite a lot of unnecessary damage in Italy and even France because they had no idea of the significance of what was there).
It was probably little reported in the American news media, but many countries suffered from terrorist attacks too in the 20th century, France Germany and Italy variously, Spain from Basque extremists, Britain from Irish extremists funded by catholic Irish groups in the USA. The USA was frequently requested to stop this funding, but the US government was not then at all interested in terrorism. You may remember, but probably not, when the centre of Manchester was destroyed, or when the tallest office building in London (a bank) was so badly damged that they had no idea whether to repair it or demolish it, or how to demolish it. A bit like the Twin Towers, really. On this occasion, ancient windows in one of the few churches not damaged by the Germans were also destroyed.
Ordinary people in American cities had never been attacked from the air.
Then suddenly they were, like everone else. They expected very special sympathy, because they were American. The world was sympathetic, but there are limits. Then the USA discovered terrorism as if it had just been invented, declared war on it, and decided to abandon many of the usual international conventions, so that the British Attorney General has finally abandoned diplomatic niceties and begged them to close Guantanimo Bay. But they are too important to care what the world thinks. And they have been attacked (just on one day) from the air. Oh dear !
French members tell me that the correct French term for what you might call Cinderella (in the sense of totally non-postal items, but not including genuine bona fide local stamps or fantasies) is "vignette". The correct British term is Label (which translates into French as "étiquette"). As "vignette" has a different meaning in English too, this is not going to get us very far. I suggested simply adding to the description: "(non-postal)", on the rare occasion (surely) when anyone wants to sell something like this (not including fantasies and local stamps). What do you think? It seems international, and very easy to understand.
England was attacked from the air in the First World War, it was expecting to be attacked from the air in the 1930s long before it actually happened, and most countries in the world were attacked from the air in the 20th century, many of them by the USA (who managed to do quite a lot of unnecessary damage in Italy and even France because they had no idea of the significance of what was there).
It was probably little reported in the American news media, but many countries suffered from terrorist attacks too in the 20th century, France Germany and Italy variously, Spain from Basque extremists, Britain from Irish extremists funded by catholic Irish groups in the USA. The USA was frequently requested to stop this funding, but the US government was not then at all interested in terrorism. You may remember, but probably not, when the centre of Manchester was destroyed, or when the tallest office building in London (a bank) was so badly damged that they had no idea whether to repair it or demolish it, or how to demolish it. A bit like the Twin Towers, really. On this occasion, ancient windows in one of the few churches not damaged by the Germans were also destroyed.
Ordinary people in American cities had never been attacked from the air.
Then suddenly they were, like everone else. They expected very special sympathy, because they were American. The world was sympathetic, but there are limits. Then the USA discovered terrorism as if it had just been invented, declared war on it, and decided to abandon many of the usual international conventions, so that the British Attorney General has finally abandoned diplomatic niceties and begged them to close Guantanimo Bay. But they are too important to care what the world thinks. And they have been attacked (just on one day) from the air. Oh dear !
French members tell me that the correct French term for what you might call Cinderella (in the sense of totally non-postal items, but not including genuine bona fide local stamps or fantasies) is "vignette". The correct British term is Label (which translates into French as "étiquette"). As "vignette" has a different meaning in English too, this is not going to get us very far. I suggested simply adding to the description: "(non-postal)", on the rare occasion (surely) when anyone wants to sell something like this (not including fantasies and local stamps). What do you think? It seems international, and very easy to understand.
hi PN,
what do you call the japanese attack by air on pearl harbor then? even though hawaii was not a state at the time, it certainly was considered a u.s. territory, as was puerto rico, guam, and the u.s. virgin islands. as for the term 'vignette', i am familiar with it. and other french philatelic termanology. and they too must be utilized. cinderella after all was a french story, i believe. think i will go out for some dinner now. take care. yak at y'all later.
later gator,
cajunsr.
hi PN,
what do you call the japanese attack by air on pearl harbor then? even though hawaii was not a state at the time, it certainly was considered a u.s. territory, as was puerto rico, guam, and the u.s. virgin islands. as for the term 'vignette', i am familiar with it. and other french philatelic termanology. and they too must be utilized. cinderella after all was a french story, i believe. think i will go out for some dinner now. take care. yak at y'all later.
later gator,
cajunsr.
The attack on Pearl Harbour was a military attack on the US Navy.
It was not an attack on the civilians in an American city !!!
If American bomber planes had hit legitimate military targets in Europe (incuding France, their ally) with as much accuracy as the Japanese, they would have caused very much less resentment.
When you say "US territory", presumably you mean non-self-governing US colonies. What was the difference between the US Virgin Islands and the Brtiish Virgin Islands ? You accuse us of imperialism.
The word "vignette" has a completely different meaning in the UK, and neither vignette nor Cinderella are recognised as philatelic terms with the meaning you ascribe to them. The French for Cinderella (in the story) is Cendrillon. At least one French collector uses the term Cinderella, but another complains it is not proper French.(Not to use it for philately in French at all).
Above all, THERE IS NO OBLIGATION AT ALL TO USE ALL AMERICAN AND FRENCH PHILATELIC TERMS JUST BECAUSE THEY EXIST.
This implciation is nonsense !
"..and other french philatelic termanology. and they too must be utilized". WHY ?
RÉPRODUCTION and FANTAISIE are French. They are fine.
REPRODUCTION and FANTASY are English. They are fine.
(NON-POSTAL) is fine.
But vignette, label, Cinderella, etc, are jsut not suitable, especially when there are other alternatives.
I'm suprised you don't see that.
With both coins and banknotes, English collectors are happy with the German term NOTGELD, and it is unfortunate that French collectors are not; similarly TOKEN and JETON are totally different words (although English collectors do use "jeton" for a type of French one). I can see no way round this.
What do you mean by "vignette" exactly in the USA, anyway ?
The attack on Pearl Harbour was a military attack on the US Navy.
It was not an attack on the civilians in an American city !!!
If American bomber planes had hit legitimate military targets in Europe (incuding France, their ally) with as much accuracy as the Japanese, they would have caused very much less resentment.
When you say "US territory", presumably you mean non-self-governing US colonies. What was the difference between the US Virgin Islands and the Brtiish Virgin Islands ? You accuse us of imperialism.
The word "vignette" has a completely different meaning in the UK, and neither vignette nor Cinderella are recognised as philatelic terms with the meaning you ascribe to them. The French for Cinderella (in the story) is Cendrillon. At least one French collector uses the term Cinderella, but another complains it is not proper French.(Not to use it for philately in French at all).
Above all, THERE IS NO OBLIGATION AT ALL TO USE ALL AMERICAN AND FRENCH PHILATELIC TERMS JUST BECAUSE THEY EXIST.
This implciation is nonsense !
"..and other french philatelic termanology. and they too must be utilized". WHY ?
RÉPRODUCTION and FANTAISIE are French. They are fine.
REPRODUCTION and FANTASY are English. They are fine.
(NON-POSTAL) is fine.
But vignette, label, Cinderella, etc, are jsut not suitable, especially when there are other alternatives.
I'm suprised you don't see that.
With both coins and banknotes, English collectors are happy with the German term NOTGELD, and it is unfortunate that French collectors are not; similarly TOKEN and JETON are totally different words (although English collectors do use "jeton" for a type of French one). I can see no way round this.
What do you mean by "vignette" exactly in the USA, anyway ?
Vive une terminologie universelle !
hi PN,
well, i hate to tell you, but go to hawaii, and there are a lot of native hawaiians that will tell you that japanese bombs fell on honolulu too. they were not that accurate. as for the termanology, you must have concrete for brains, not rubber. if you want universal terms, then what is wrong with using all of the termanology we have suggested. this is the difference between me as an american and you as an englishman, i will be more flexible about the situation. it don't make that much difference to me. i can live with any of them. after all i am a philatelist, been one for over 45 years. and it's time for bed.
later gators,
cajunsr.
hi PN,
well, i hate to tell you, but go to hawaii, and there are a lot of native hawaiians that will tell you that japanese bombs fell on honolulu too. they were not that accurate. as for the termanology, you must have concrete for brains, not rubber. if you want universal terms, then what is wrong with using all of the termanology we have suggested. this is the difference between me as an american and you as an englishman, i will be more flexible about the situation. it don't make that much difference to me. i can live with any of them. after all i am a philatelist, been one for over 45 years. and it's time for bed.
later gators,
cajunsr.
I'll tell you what's wrong with it. Not eveybody speaks American English, and not everybody is even a skilled philatelist in any language.
If you think that all these terms should be used and everybody should communicate in English, I suggest you argue your case on the French and other websites, as I have been trying to do. It's just not on.
What Pascal wants is a SIMPLE system that everyone can understand. He has made this amply clear:
He even calls is a crusade (repeating one of Mr Bush's mistakes, unfortunately).
I don't think the odd Japanese bomb falling on Honolulu affected the citizens of New York very much. Hull suffered more than that in the First World War.
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and personally, i hope delcampe throws this dealer off his site because he does not say his coins are fakes. 
this is what i have tried to tell him and pascal all along. not only do you have to worry about scam artists, but also sellers who do not comply with rules of good conduct and honesty. and i am talking about the goods being genuine. not just stamps or coins, but how about jewelry. is that ring really solid gold or that stone a real diamond or a synthetic stone? or that old comic a copy? the list goes on and on. we are just on the tip of an iceberg here, but i'm sure pascal is ready with his blowdryer. y'all take care.
so i really don't want to go further with this, my PTSD is really kickin' up right now. i need to calm down. talk at y'all later. peace.
